103 Responses

  1. Morticia

    I liked this.

    Women tend to call List A “chemistry”.

  2. Sis

    I blogged some of my thoughts on this and linked to you, hope you don’t mind. I have an opposing viewpoint, but I think you covered your side well and did a convincing job.

  3. Escoffier

    I don’t think there is anything wrong in the above analysis but I do wonder if there is something, or one thing, wrong with the implicit underlying assumptions.

    Certainly just about any guy can up his “A” through losing weight, changing his diet, hitting the gym, etc. He can also dress better (this is not as expensive as many presume), and develop mastery of some hobby that girls find cool. All that is within reach of just about anyone.

    Where I have my doubts is the orthodox game teaching that a man can change his character or nature. You touch on this when you talk about overcoming shyness. Certainly this is possible for some shy men, but for all? For the majority? I don’t think so. Observationally, one just does not see it happen all that often. OK, you might say, that’s because too few are trying. That may be true. Perhaps more should try, if only because the cohort of those who could succeed is larger than the cohort of those who actually try.

    But I for one do not believe that it is possible for *any* many to “will” himself into an “alpha” personality. Game teachers seem to think that it’s possible: learn what the alpha behaviors are, and then go out there and practice, draw strength from early failures and humiliations, and eventually you too will be a “behavioral alpha.” It will work for some, but less than half who try, and probably a lot less.

    I do think, however, that a very large proportion of natural betas can learn to avoid typical beta mistakes such as supplication, orbiting, and so on.

    The deeper problem here is that this “behavioral” stuff overrides the rest for most women. That is, a really beta guy has it completely within his power to up his physical attractiveness. Baring medical issues, only laziness is stopping him. So, say a guy through heroic work raises himself from a 4 to a 7. Loses weight, builds muscle and becomes a master at … whatever. Voila, he passes the initial List A “are you attractive?” test.

    But if his personality is still the same, he gives at least two of those three points back as soon as he opens his mouth.

    Maybe I am wrong, but I just don’t believe the personality makeover is truly possible for most men.

  4. The Rules of Attraction and God | Journey Through Grace

    […] Interlude: Keeping the Red Pill Down (Christian Version)  Veritas Lounge […]

  5. Cail Corishev

    I think this is one of the bitterest parts of the red pill, and one of the hardest parts for most men to keep down: getting over the feeling that it’s “unfair” that women aren’t attracted to the niceness you’ve been cultivating all your life. It’s understandable that men feel that way — when everyone from your family to the people in your TV has been telling you lies about the way to a girl’s heart, it’s hard to give up on that myth. It’s like if you went and got an advanced degree in Widget Design because everyone said there was big money in it, and then you graduated and found out that no one buys widgets anymore and all the other widget designers are delivering pizza for minimum wage.

    You can rail against the system for lying to you, but at some point you have to realize that your Widget Design degree is worthless, and get on with a new plan for your life. That’s hard. But guys with 20+ years of training in Advanced Niceness eventually have to accept that it’s useless, and start over with a fresh take on things.

  6. Escoffier

    BTW, it’s a major disconnenct for me to read all this talk about religion from someone who went to Stanford. :^)

  7. Cail Corishev

    Escoffier, I tend to agree that most men won’t be able to transform their personalities completely. And I suspect most wouldn’t want to. I’m an introvert, and I’m happy being that way. I don’t much enjoy crowds of people, and I don’t think I’d want to enjoy crowds of people, even if I could, because then I wouldn’t feel like myself. We pretty much are who we are, and significant change in personality in adulthood is rare.

    However, I don’t think most men need a total transformation. Most men are inherently attractive enough that all they really need is defensive game — to stop doing the things that drive women away, such as the beta habits you mentioned: supplication, etc. When I discovered game, I didn’t become an extrovert, or get rich, or lose a bunch of weight; I just stopped putting women on pedestals and allowed myself to be playful with them — the bratty little sister frame. I never hesitated to tease my little sisters, so why didn’t I tease women? Because I’d been trained to fear their reaction. I just had to break that training.

    That explains the past, when most people got married and seemed content enough about it. It’s not like all men used to be highly dominant alphas; a shoe salesman with a wife and three kids in 1950 didn’t exude massive alpha qualities like we talk about today, but he was still the king of his castle because he didn’t exude lickspittle toady qualities either. That was enough when his wife’s default mode was more-or-less submissive and his kids’ was more-or-less obedience.

    Men may feel like they need super-alpha qualities today, because so many women have gone feral and only pursue the super-alphas. But that assumes those are the women he wants. If he’s really interested in the ones who are avoiding the carousel, I suspect defensive game will be plenty to enable him to attract those.

  8. Escoffier

    I agree with that.

    I guess the real difference in the mix of women. In the past, “defensive game” was good enough for the majority of women but today it only works on some much smaller percentage.

    “Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.”

  9. deti

    Good to see you, Esco.

    I don’t think a man can change his overall inner character through game. He can change his behaviors, though, and most of the time this means stopping the unattractive beta behaviors.

    I like the List A (attraction) and then List B (filters). It’s a new way of looking at a conundrum that is endemic to Christian men. Traits such as righteousness, holiness, reverence, fidelity and industriousness aren’t attractive. They are desirable, but they are not attractive.

    This is where some get lost in the weeds over what draws women to men. Desirable is not the same thing as attractive; the terms aren’t interchangeable. Christian women are still attracted to confidence, dominance and status. But Christian women sincerely looking for marriage to a Christian man want righteous and reverent men WHO ARE ALSO confident, dominant and with status.

  10. Will S.

    I can think of at least two former Red Pillers who have pulled a ‘Cypher’ and gone back to the Blue Pill. It happens, alas…

  11. deti

    Will S.:

    I am not sure I could go back now. It’s doubly bad for those who know the truth and yet choose not to walk in it. I know too much.

    1. Cail Corishev

      I don’t see how you go back either. If the red pill is too devastating, I could see joining a monastery or going the “alpha harem” route, but I don’t know how you just un-know things you know. If a man actually does that, I’d have to assume he never really understood the truth in the first place. Maybe he was just sneaking up on it, but hadn’t really taken it in yet.

      It’s like Columbus discovering the New World: he could conquer it and make himself emperor, or he could go back home and announce it for king and country, or he could decide it was scary and go back home and keep it a secret. But he couldn’t just forget it was there.

  12. Will S.

    Neither could I, deti.

    I recently found the twitter page of a church girl who had previously tickled my fancy; in addition to various Christian twitterers, she follows Kelly Ripa, Live with Kelly and Michael, Time.com, and an ostensibly ‘conservative’ politician who declares his support for gay rights loudly on his page.

    Most dismaying.

  13. Escoffier

    The lowbrow tastes of many “quality” women is a source of constant dismay to me. There is an attractive (single) woman I work with, Ivy-educated, very sophisticated looking, decent taste when it comes to clothes, food and wine, but “culturally’ she is a mess. Celebrity gossip, who’s wearing what, and action movies. That’s all she knows. Literature, history (her college major), music, even classic movies–zip, across the board.

  14. Will S.

    Exactly, Escoffier.

  15. deti

    “accepting the true nature of what women find attractive and how female attraction works”

    I think a lot of Christian men get to this point and get stuck for a long time. I know I did. It’s very, very difficult to come to the realization that the things everyone told you are attractive: education, good job, earning power, industriousness, fidelity, loyalty, affability, righteousness, reverence — are not attractive. IOW women don’t tingle at them. Women want those things in a man, but they want them in a man who is sexually attractive. So those traits are desirable, but they are not attractive.

    What happens I think is that parents, pastors, etc. confuse attractive traits with desirable traits, for a lot of reasons. Women, specifically mothers, are the ones who tend to talk about these things with sons. Also, I suspect most of those women don’t know themselves what they think is attractive or desirable. Third, I think they presume their sons are attractive and press them to work on their desirable, “civilizing” traits so as to make them more palatable for marriage, in good faith thinking this will help their boys in life and in love.

  16. Vic

    “For Christian men, as for most others, the key is working on List A. Otherwise, you’re really just dressing up a garden variety rejection of red pill truth in Christian vestments, which doesn’t really get you any closer to your life goals.”

    I wish that was true. The Red Pill for a Christian husband is realizing that the woman threatening to divorce him if he doesn’t work MORE on her list is that the list and much of Christian advice is BS. The reason you don’t place moral hazards in business contracts is not because nobody is trustworthy, it’s because even the best intentions can be corrupted by human nature.

    Marriage contracts are a moral hazard that reward women and punish men, no matter how many lists he checks off. The darker side of female nature (hypergamic spectrum, Imperative and solipsism) is fed a toxic diet of justification for almost every decision and situation she finds herself in.

    Marriage is now an irresponsible decision for the vast majority of men, even Christian men.

    Good luck, ladies. You’re going to need it. MGTOW

  17. sunshinemary

    Escoffier wrote:

    The lowbrow tastes of many “quality” women is a source of constant dismay to me.

    Yes, it never fails to surprise me how uncurious so many women are about the fascinating world around them. They seem only to care for the cheapest parts of life; silly celebrity gossip or discussing fashion labels (as opposed to really looking at the style of the clothing, as if a label can magically make you look good). Morticia wrote about this in her post The Problem of Boring Women.

  18. Morticia

    I think women like to escape into “low-brow” stuff. The more stressful their lives are, the less they want to think about heavy topics.

    When I was working full-time I tended to want to come home and veg to low-brow entertainment. And even now..I still pick up a US Weekly in the check-out aisle to see what the women wore that week.

    I currently read howbrow stuff, but I am not very stressed right now and am not so motivated towards escapism.

    I notice this with friends. When they are going through a lot and I bring up a weighty subject they say “I can’t think about that right now. Hey, did you see last weeks Real Housewives?”

  19. Escoffier

    But there’s a difference between the occasional escape and not knowing anything else. This woman SHOULD know more. But as far as I can tell, she doesn’t. Her expensive education is just a hazy blot to her now. I don’t think she remembers any of it, to the extent that she learned anything in the first place.

  20. Will S.

    I’m sure it’s a generational thing, too; I know my mother doesn’t have anywhere near the level of interest in celebrity gossip, etc. that most young women seem to, and I can’t imagine any of her girlfriends wasting their time on such; they’d rather gossip about people they actually know. 😉

  21. Höllenhund

    I’d say you all make the situation seem more complicated than it actually is. There are two iron rules in the mating marketplace (MMP): 1. when female quality declines, more men leave the market 2. when more men leave the market, female quality declines. What we can observe today in male-female relations is a simple feedback loop.

    As we know, there was a time when women were economically dependent on men on an individual (one-on-one) basis (the kew word here is “individual”). Pretty much every woman had to practice assortative mating and get married – or become a nun/prostitute, or basically starve to death. This meant that women had to elicit commitment from men of similar mating market value (MMV), which in turn meant that women had to develop certain traits to maximize their MMV. They had to learn all sorts of skills (cooking, sewing, knitting etc.), plus the ability to keep their weight and feral nature in check.

    All this went out the window when Marriage 1.0 collapsed, for reasons that probably don’t need any explanation here (Four Horsemen of the Sexual Apocalypse and all that). Women no longer need to elicit commitment from men of equal MMV (the key word is “need”), so they begin to shift their sexual strategy from eliciting commitment from men towards pandering to the short-term desires of just the top men i.e. trying to out-slut each other to get the attention of alphas. In short, women increasingly become feral, showing their true colors (there’s no annoying “patriarchy” anymore holding them back) and shitting all over betas.

    The thing about feral women is that they can elicit all sorts of responses from men: MGTOW, PUA, MRA, spree-killing, porn addiction, slacking, Peter Pan Syndrome, you name it. In many ways these are different, but in one sense they’re all similar: they equal leaving the MMP – because the one male behavior these women consistently fail to elicit is that of the responsible, loyal husband and father. Betas are disgusted by them, because their interest in women is fundamentally long-term oriented – as opposed to alphas, who pretty much view almost all women as worthy of casual sex and nothing else.

    Most betas are probably aware that they could do the hard work to make themselves more sexually attractive, but most of them simply cannot be bothered to do so because they mostly don’t see their female counterparts as prizes worth winning – certainly not worthy of long-term commitment.

    And from then on, it’s nothing but a race to the bottom. If a growing percent of men drop out of the sexual market, it primarily hits the women that are still looking for commitment from men of equal MMV. Fewer and fewer men present themselves as attractive, so a growing segment of women stop marketing themselves to average men and join those already gunning for the few alphas. Which demotivates relationship-oriented betas even more. The attitudes in today’s MMP are self-reinforcing. Women become worse, so men also become worse, thus women become even worse and so on. And it won’t change anytime soon.

    All in all, I cannot agree with the idea that betas largely refuse to implement Game because they are somehow psychologically resistant to it. The main reason instead is that, again, they simply cannot be bothered. Of course, you won’t read about this on PUA sites because it contradicts their worldview.

    1. Escoffier

      I disagree with this.

      The desire to get laid is so strongly ingrained that if a man thought that all he had to do was learn a few things, most men would do it gladly–especially young men. I do think a lot of men shrink back from game not because they can’t be bothered but either because they can’t accept it intellectually/psychologically, or else–if the can–because they are too daunted to act on it. This is especially true when distinguishing between STRs & ONSs and LTRs & marriage. Certainly many women are not worthy of the latter, but all it takes to be worthy of the former is looks. So, unless a man is particularly moral or religious (or asexual), he will indulge himself in the former if he can.

      Now, the older a man gets, the more likely he is to conclude “not worth it.” And, there is probably some subset of men of all ages who conclude that from the beginning. But that is small

      For most, and especially young men, they would want to get laid if they could.

      1. Höllenhund

        “The desire to get laid is so strongly ingrained that if a man thought that all he had to do was learn a few things, most men would do it gladly–especially young men.”

        But nobody is saying that he merely has to “learn a few things”. What people are saying – if they can be bothered to say it in the first place, of course – is that he has to learn and work on himself a lot.

        “Certainly many women are not worthy of the latter, but all it takes to be worthy of the former is looks.”

        It’s true that men attach a greater importance to look when it comes to casual sex rather than relationships. But men also want easy, laid-back, non-crazy, non-clingy women without psychological baggage for casual sex- it’s called “don’t stick your dick in crazy”. And most Western women won’t make that cut. Men only want casual sex if it has no consenquences. But that’s just a male fantasy. There’s no such thing as free sex. Betas generally have no access to casual sex anyway, so it doesn’t matter whether they want to have casual sex or not.

  22. Cail Corishev

    All in all, I cannot agree with the idea that betas largely refuse to implement Game because they are somehow psychologically resistant to it. The main reason instead is that, again, they simply cannot be bothered. Of course, you won’t read about this on PUA sites because it contradicts their worldview.

    Or because it’s wrong. I don’t think most betas refuse to implement game, because I don’t think most betas are aware of game. Sure, they’re aware that bad boys have some sort of hook or techniques that seem to make them irresistible to women, but they don’t know that they could adopt those techniques, or that they’re based on deeper truths about men and women that apply to all men and not just the ones with motorcycles and prison records.

    You may be right about men who have a limited concept of game, though. If a guy’s a 6, he’d be glad to learn game if he thought it could get him an 8 (again, assuming he’s even aware of it). But if he thinks it’ll only give him a chance at a 6, he may not be so willing to put in the work. He has to learn that game isn’t just PUA stuff for “tricking” a hot chick into giving you her number, but can actually be about raising his own SMV so that he can attract the kind of woman who attracts him.

    You’re giving betas too much credit for discernment, though. I’ve known plenty of betas (including my past self) who fell head-over-heels for feral women, ignoring or rationalizing away the huge red flags they were carrying. There may be some number of men who are virtuous and strong-willed enough to see them clearly enough to be “disgusted” by them, but those are a small minority. I don’t think “betas turning down feral women” is much of a factor in what’s happening.

    1. Höllenhund

      I agree that most men are unaware of Game – that’s a given. But most men are aware that they could make themselves more sexually attractive if they wanted to. They know they could dress better, hit the gym, be more “cocky”, go to nightclubs, learn how to dance etc. But most of them simply cannot be bothered. The huge popularity of computer games, online porn and the like are testimony to that.

      1. Cail Corishev

        Speaking only for myself, I really never knew that I could make myself significantly more attractive. Oh sure, I knew that if I got a motorcycle and a leather jacket, started hanging out at nightclubs, and learned to be the life of the party, that presumably women would swarm me just like the guys who already fit that description. But that was so far from who I was that it wasn’t imaginable; you might as well have told me, “No big deal, just grow six inches taller and lengthen your manhood a few inches while you’re at it.”

        I didn’t think that there was anything that I, as myself, could reasonably do to increase my attractiveness, except to keep trying to be nicer and hope to get lucky. I would have gladly turned off the computer any time a woman was available, but they just weren’t, and I had no idea I could change that. Until I discovered game.

  23. will

    Men mistake righteousness as sinking your masculinity and becoming milksop. Losing your former swagger and confidence.

  24. donalgraeme

    I have been using my own version of List A and List B ever since I took the Red Pill. However, I think it fits better as a matrix (see what I did there?) , or maybe a table, with two columns and two lines. Instead of A I have Alpha traits, which are the attractive traits in List A. B turns into Beta traits, which encompasses the other features women like in men (stable provider, good father, etc.) With Alpha traits as a Yes/No on the left and Beta traits on top, you get four categories that men fall into.

    Alpha Yes/Beta Yes: The “ideal” man. Husband material. The man women want.

    Alpha Yes/Beta No: The usual definition of alpha in the ‘sphere. “Bad Boy.” The man that women will have ONS with, have as boyfriends or STRs with.

    Alpha No/Beta Yes: Lets Just Be Friends. Think Beta Orbiters, or Friendzone territory. The kind of guys that women ignore until they hit the Wall, and whom they marry out of desperation. And then divorce a few years later.

    Alpha No/ Beta No: Creeps. Invisible to women most of the time, and when they do show up on a woman’s radar its usually followed by a Sexual Harassment claim or a 911 call.

    The problem of course is that feminism and the cult of nice has been pushing men more and more towards the Beta traits and away from the Alpha traits. The end result is that most men fall into the Alpha No/Beta Yes category. Those who resist this become bad boys, and fall into the Alpha Yes/ Beta No category.

    End result naturally is that women claim that “there are no good men left” all the while they throw themselves at the Bad Boys.

  25. donalgraeme

    Hollenhund, that is exactly it. You see, men and women are alike in one respect: We only date (or whatever else term you want) those we find attractive, so long as we have the option. For women, they want AY/BY men, but there are precious few. Since AN men are unattractive, they focus their efforts on the AY/BN men, aka, “bad boys.” They want alpha, and will take it in whatever package they can find it.

    Truth is, there is no reason why a man can’t be Alpha Yes/Beta Yes, except for the fact that culture, aided by feminism and the cult of nice (which I think come from the same wellspring) make that very difficult.

  26. donalgraeme

    I have made that table if you are interested. Just shoot me an e-mail and I will get it to you.

  27. Interlude: Donalgraeme’s Charts of Attraction

    […] in a prior post, commenter donalgreame mentioned that he had discerned his own attraction matrix, to […]

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